By Risto Stefov
Some of you have asked me to write about the Modern Greeks and what they really think of themselves and their neighbours; a subject which I have often touched on but have never fully delved into.
I would have to say that, as a general rule, it is none of my business to gossip about people unless of course they give me reason to. Believe me the Greeks have given me plenty of reasons to not only to analyze them forwards and backwards without feeling guilty, but to talk about them as I see fit. In fact I would go as far as saying, “It is imperative to know thy Greeks as seen through the eyes of at least one Macedonian!”
Like every other people in the world, typical Greeks fall into a number of categories; but the only categories of interest to me are those who interfere in the affairs of the Macedonian people. These Greeks fall into two distinct categories, the clueless and the ones leading the clueless.
I used to think that every Greek out there knew the truth, especially about themselves, and “stood their ground” because of “self interest and self preservation”. But with time I have discovered that it is not always the case. Yes it is true that there are many Greeks who know their own true narrative but because of “self interest” have chosen to defend their mythical narrative; an alternate reality which puts them at an advantage over others, but which unfortunately comes into collision with the Macedonian narrative.
In order for these Greeks to convince themselves that what they are doing is right they need to convince the rest of the Greeks to follow them in their quest. For example there are many Greeks today who know they are not Greeks of the type that are direct descendants from the ancient Greeks from 2,600 years ago, but are more like Greeks by circumstance who became Greeks by force when they were brought to Greece from Asia Minor or from the Caucasus to colonize Macedonia . Or they were Albanians or Vlachs gripped by the chokehold of 19th century nationalism which turned them into Greeks. In any case, it is irrelevant how these people became Greeks, but the fact that they are in an ideal position in Greek society today gives them ample reasons to defend their “assumed” position by defending the status quo i.e. that they are Greeks who descended from the ancient Greeks or more lately, they are Greeks who descended from the ancient Macedonians.
And of course they have their followers, the clueless Greeks who believe everything they tell them. How does one recognize a clueless Greek? By the way they react to new information.
Just recently I received the following “typical” e-mail from a Greek:
WRITING THESE ARTICLES PROVES YOU ARE INFERIOR, YOU CAN'T COME UP WITH ANYTHING ELSE YOUR JUST DOWN A BARBARION WHO IS DAMN JEALOUS LOL
TO RSTEFOV@GMAIL
THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THE TRUTH, BUT WHO EVER HATES THE GREEKS TRIES TO STEAL HISTORY OR DENIE THE TRUTH OR TRIES TO OFFEND THEM ALL ARE JUST PLAIN IGNORANT FOOLS. THE TRUTH SHALL BE REVEALED, IT CANNOT HIDE FOR LONG NO MATTER HOW ONE TRIES TO CHANGE THINGS AROUND.
WE HAVE THE PROOF ALL OVER THE WORLD. ENVIOUS PEOPLE WILL TRY TO SHUT PEOPLE'S MOUTHS, BUT THE ROCKS TALK LOUDER IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THIS, THEN YOUR PROVING YOU ARE A BARBARIAN WHO CANNOT READ!!!!! SO IF YOUR PEOPLE CANNOT READ AND UNDERSTAND BETWEEN THE LINES THEY PROVE THEY ARE JUST BABBARIANS WITHOUT US GREEKS ARGUING WITH THEM!!!!!
THEY ARE SO JEALOUS, THEY HAVE TO MAKE UP THESE TYPE OF ARTICLES. THEY ARE THE LOWEST OF THE LOW THAT IS WHY THEY ENVY US. THEY KNOW THEY ARE INFERIOR
Well, where do I begin?
To some degree we are all drones and believe what we are taught or told by the authorities. Why else did we all believe at one point in time that the earth was flat? Yes it is true; the entire world at one point in time knew for a fact that the earth was flat! It knew the truth about the earth being flat just like the entire world today knows the truth about the Greeks being the descendants of the ancient Greeks!
It was okay to make such claims when there was no evidence to show different. But what about after it had been discovered that the earth was not flat? How should people have reacted? Should they have continued to believe the earth was flat in spite of the evidence showing that it wasn’t?
Similarly, when no one opposed the “Greek claim” that “Macedonians do not exist” it was believed to be true! More recently however it was proven that “Macedonians do exist”, I am a living example of that. No only do they exist all over the world but Macedonians today have their own country! So what is “the truth” in this case? Do Macedonians exist, as the evidence points out, or do they NOT exist as Greeks like to claim?
How about examining the Greek claim that the “Modern Greeks are the descendents of the ancient Greeks”. What evidence have the Modern Greeks presented to prove this claim? More importantly, what evidence have the Greeks neglected in an attempt to prove this claim? When one examines all “the facts” it is easy to find the truth. It is a far fetched claim to insist that “the Modern Greeks are the descendents of the ancient Greeks” when evidence points to “the Modern Greeks being the descendents of the 19th century Albanians, Vlachs and of the 20th century Macedonians”.
There is far more evidence that points to the modern Greeks being the descendents of the Albanians, Vlachs and Macedonians than there is that points to the Modern Greeks being the descendants of the ancient Greeks of 2,600 years ago. I am not saying this because I hate the Greeks and because I am jealous of them. I am saying this because evidence points in that direction!
But again there are many, many clueless Greeks out there who insist that “this is all wrong” and only the enemies of the Greeks would make such absurd claims and that there is some sort of “information” out there that when it comes out will prove that things are different!
Unfortunately, for the clueless Greeks, there is no “such”, “more” or “other” information out there that will justify the lies perpetrated by Greek authorities over the last 200 years. If anything does come out it will be more lies to cover up previous lies or to “disclaim” newly uncovered information. A good example of this is Greece ’s stand on the Macedonian question claiming that “Macedonians do not exist”. When the Republic of Macedonia was about to emerge, all of a sudden all sorts of Macedonians were living in Greece ! Even the imported Christian Turkish colonists settled in Greek occupied Macedonia in the 1920’s overnight became “Macedonians” and on top of that, they claimed to be the “descendents of the ancient Macedonians from 2,300 years ago! All this by magic no less! And after decades of saying that “Macedonians do not exist”, what reason did the Greeks have to “invent” these “new” Macedonians of the Greek kind? I will leave this one for you to figure out!
If these clueless Greeks care to open their eyes they will find the truth, not in any books or in my articles but on the very land they today call Greece . Examine the people from generations back, before Greece became a country for the first time in 1829, and see what language they spoke, what customs and traditions they followed, etc. Look at the geographical names of the land, the villages, towns, cities, lakes, rivers, regions and see what they were called before Greece changed them. If all these people were Greeks, descendants from the ancient Greeks and all these lands were Greek then what reason did the Greek authorities to have to change them? What about the people living in Greece who today speak “Arvanitika”, “Vlahika” and “Makethonika”, are they also descendents of the ancient Greeks? How did they come about to speak those languages if all Greeks of all generations were Greek since 2,600 ago? Are those languages dialects of the ancient Greeks?
I know some people will argue that language has little to do with descent but then again how did those languages appear in a region where they don’t belong, in a region, which according to Modern Greeks, has always been Greek, where the Greek language has always been spoken? If Modern Greeks are the descendents of the ancient Greeks then they must have always been Greeks and spoke the Greek language without interruption.
Aside from that it is well known that throughout history, since Philip II’s time, the entire Balkans existed borderless until the 1800’s and were invaded and occupied by at least the Ancient Macedonians, the Romans, the Byzantines and the Ottomans for no less 2,300 years. What happened to the “purity” of the Greek race during that time?
What about the number of times over the years that Greece, particularly the Peloponnesus, the heart of Greece, was settled by Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Latins and so on? What happened to these people? Were they “Hellenized”? And if they were, how does that make them “the descendents of the ancient Greeks”?
And then we have the 20th century 1,000,000 Christian Turkish colonists who were brought to Greece from Asia Minor and the Caucasus , where they Greeks too, descendents from the ancient Greeks?
I think there is a huge gap, the size of the Grand Canyon , between what the “truth” is and what the Greeks claim “the truth” to be. This is particularly true in the “Greek thinking” between their claim that “Macedonians do not exist” and their claim that they themselves are “the descendants from the ancient Greeks”.
Instead of thinking that there is some sort of conspiracy on my part and on the part of people like myself, why not examine the evidence for yourselves and reach your own conclusion about what is “truth” and what is “myth”! If you really think that you are the “superior” people you claim to be, surely then you should be able to separate fact from fiction and discover the truth for yourselves! And please don’t forget to tell me what it is!
Showing posts with label Staf. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Staf. Show all posts
Tuesday, March 8, 2011
Tuesday, March 1, 2011
How serious is Greece about the negotiations?
Almost twenty years have passed and Greek authorities are still blocking the Macedonian people from using the name “ Republic of Macedonia ” for their country.
So, on the surface it would appear that the Greeks in authority are pretty serious about the name and are hard at work “negotiating” with Macedonian authorities to find a “mutually acceptable” solution. At least that is my understanding according to an article published on January 25th, 2011 in the Macedonian online website which quotes Greece ’s Prime Minister saying “I am not an optimist over the prospects for swift settlement of the name dispute with FYR Macedonia. The other side refuses to accept a name with geographical qualifier for all uses. The Greek positions and initiatives in the issue are stable and constant. We will not stop in our efforts to find a mutually acceptable solution. We have a national strategy and clearly drawn red lines," said Papandreou while presenting the country's foreign-policy objectives.
If that were the case why then has a Greek Minister been quoted as saying something entirely different?
Here is what one of my readers sent me;
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/80506-0016.htm
Column 532 is part of an interesting Speech by Lord Robertson (former NATO General Secretary and UK Minister of Defense), somebody considered a political big hitter and the sort of person who would know exactly what happens in NATO summits. If he says Greece Vetoed Macedonia, I’d take it as certain that they did, despite what the official (public) reports said. As a Labour member he would have had direct access to the PM and Minister for Defense (two men actually in the room at the time of the veto).
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090326/debtext/90326-0017.htm#90326-0017.htm_spnew1
Column 529. Not Lord Robertson as I wrongly remembered it, but Robert Walter MP. The Greek Defense minister he mentions could have been Spilios Spiliotopoulos, Yiannos Papantoniou or possibly (but unlikely) Akis Tsochatzopoulos. I imagine you know a lot more about Greek politicians than I do, so you would know who the more likely culprit (and private supporter of the Republic of Macedonia ) is.
Either way, both documents are freely available on the Parliament website, and as such open to public scrutiny.
Yes, Greece Vetoed Macedonia FACT. Yes, senior Greek politicians don't actually care about the issue, and simply use it to score internal political points (votes) FACT.
Quoted here are the references given above;
6 May 2008 : Column 532
In the previous debate, and probably in this one as well, we will talk about the reality of what is going on. My noble friend Lady Ashton outlined a number of the areas where the common foreign policy is working and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned a few areas where there is great potential for the future.
One experience during my time in NATO has almost disappeared from the scene. It was an insurgency in the small country of Macedonia —still obliged by the United Nations to be called the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia . It was scandalously—and I say that with great deliberation—excluded from an invitation to NATO membership at the recent Bucharest summit because of an unreasonable and indefensible veto by Greece on that country, simply because it will not change its name. However, in 2001, it was beset by an insurgency and all of the agencies came together—the European Union, NATO, the OSCE, the World Bank, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the European Union’s representative in Bosnia and Herzegovina , and the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. Everyone got involved.
Javier Solana and I went to Macedonia 11 times between March and November of that year. It got huge coverage and was the biggest story of that time. In the Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, wrote an article saying that it was an unmitigated disaster that we were getting involved in yet another Balkan swamp. The strap-line to his front-page article said, with the characteristic understatement for which Simon Jenkins is so well known, that I would not be content until the Balkans were aflame from the Adriatic to Istanbul.
However, all those agencies came together, worked together, on the ground at the highest and lowest levels. A peace plan was designed and, of course, Macedonia is now on the brink of both European Union and NATO membership. If people would like to learn a little more about it, the Royal United Services Institute has just published a small book by Mark Laity, who used to be my representative in Macedonia at the time, chronicling both what happened there and the lessons from it. It is well worth reading for those who would like to know, not about the scary prospects of European defense, but about how it works in action. I think that is of more relevance, frankly, than a lot of the scaremongering we have heard as each stage of the European integration debate has gone along.
However, I say, and I know that my successor would also say, had he been here in the House of Lords as well, that what the treaty proposes—the Berlin-plus arrangements and European defense as part of the common and foreign security policy—will strengthen and not compete with NATO. It will not duplicate NATO but provide assets that will be useful to NATO as a whole. Overall it will add to our capability as Europeans to be able to defend ourselves from the threats of the future rather than the enemies of the past.
26 Mar 2009 : Column 529
Robert Key: Will my hon. Friend share his perspective on the problem that Macedonia ’s name holds for the Greeks, who hold the right to block any progress for that new democracy because of the disputed name?
Mr. Walter: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and share his frustration about the Greek veto over Macedonia ’s participation in NATO. If we can, we ought to knock some heads together. I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name. We have to move on, because such ridiculous problems—although the Turkey-Cyprus problem is not ridiculous to a Cypriot—are blocking the co-operation that is essential if we are to move forward. I understand where the political rationale for Turkey vis-a-vis the EU lies, but we all need to look at the bigger picture.
I believe Mr. Walter hit the nail on the head when he said “I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name.”
In other words the Greeks are “playing political games” with the Macedonians and not only “don’t care” about the “name” and what happens to Macedonia and the Macedonian people but at the same time hypocritically talk about “mutually acceptable solutions” and “good neighbourly relations”. What does this all mean?
According to my reader it means that the two large moderate parties in Greece almost always receive the same number of votes and are in balance and in order to “win elections” they need the support of the fringe elements; the nationalists and the extremists. So whichever party “panders” to the sentiments of these people usually wins the election. So, Macedonia has become a “whipping boy” for Greek politicians to score political points with Greek nationalists and extremists.
Here are some interesting links, courtesy of my reader - why wait for Athens wikileaks when UK leaks are just as informative.
London Wikileaks Cables
HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305019/HMG-LOOKING-FORWARD-TO-BUILDING-ON-GAINS-OF-NATO-BUCHAREST-SUMMIT.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON1017
Date: 4/9/2008 15:46
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN
Destination: 08LONDON4|08LONDON845
Header: VZCZCXYZ0028PP RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #1017 1001546ZNY CCCCC ZZHP 091546Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 8205INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVERUEHKV/AMEMBASSY KYIV 0075RUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE 0141RUEHSI/AMEMBASSY TBILISI 0281RHEHNSC/NSC WASHDCRUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHDCRUEKJCS/JCS WASHDC
Tags: PREL,PGOV,NATO,EU,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001017 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS STATE FOR EUR/WE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/09/2018 TAGS: PREL, PGOV, NATO, EU, UK SUBJECT: HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT REF: A. LONDON 0845 B. LONDON 4/8 DAILY REPORT Classified By: Political Counselor Rick Mills for reasons 1.4 (b) and ( d)
1. (C/NF) According to FCO Deputy Director for Security Policy Chris Holtby, HMG shares U.S. views that the results of the NATO Bucharest Summit were better than expected going in, and looked forward to working closely with us to move forward soon on the outcomes which fell short of expectations. At the top of the list for the UK is Macedonian accession. PM Brown was deeply disappointed that the Greeks would not move on a compromise name, and wants to re-energize UN, Brussels and bilateral processes. The UK agrees with the U.S. position that the invitation does not have to wait for another summit; it can be extended at any NAC as soon as the Greeks agree. HMG is also determined not to let the name issue interfere with Macedonian progress towards EU membership.
London Wikileaks Cables
HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305022/HMG-WILL-CONTINUE-TO-ENGAGE-WITH-ATHENS-AND-SKOPJE-ON-MACEDONIA-NAMENATO-ACCESSION-ISSUE.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON1112
Date: 4/18/2008 14:00
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL
Destination: 08STATE40462
Header: VZCZCXYZ0000OO RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #1112 1091400ZNY CCCCC ZZHO 181400Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 8305INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE PRIORITYRUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE PRIORITY 0145
Tags: PREL,NATO,EU,MK,GR,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001112 SIPDIS SIPDIS DEPT. FOR EUR/RPM, EUR/SCE, EUR/WE E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/11/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, EU, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE REF: STATE 40462 Classified By: Political Minister-Counselor Maura Connelly for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
1. (C) HMG has been engaging, and will continue to engage with, senior Greek leadership to encourage Athens to be more flexible in its position on the Macedonia name issue. FCO Balkans Group Deputy Director Adam Bye said that the British Ambaasador (HMA) to Greece had met with Foreign Minister Bakoyiani on April 14, stressing many of the points contained reftel. Bakoyiani's reaction showed little movement from that of the Greek position we have heard over the past few months - that it was Skopje refusing to be flexible, and that Greece has worked as hard as it could within the UN mediating process. According to Bye, Bakoyiani also added that progress was unlikely before the June 1 Macedonian elections. Bye said the FCO would summarize the points contained reftel for HMA in Athens, advise him of the other countries the USG has requested to assist, and ask him to approach the FM once again. HMA may also contact Ambassador Speckhard to discuss joint approaches to the Greek government.
2. (C) Bye underlined that HMG is as concerned as the USG about the Greece-Macedonia impasse, and its impact on the NATO Alliance and Balkan stability and in the longer term, EU unity. He shared a readout of an April 18 video conference which he attended and included representatives from UK Missions to Greece, Macedonia, NATO and the EU: the UK appreciates and will continue to support U.S. efforts to remove the Greek block on Macedonian accession to NATO; the June 1 Macedonian elections represent an additional challenge, and the UK will urge political parties on all sides not to politicize the name issue or appeal to nationalistic instincts to gain support; while the UK shares the U.S. desire that this issue be resolved within the next few weeks, it is more likely to require a "sustained push," at least until the Macedonian elections; and, the UK will lobby other EU members to exert influence on Athens. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX LEBARON
London Wikileaks Cables
NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:05PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305009/NATO-MACEDONIA-INVITATION-UK-EFFORTS-FAIL-TO-MOVE-ATHENS.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON954
Date: 4/2/2008 15:29
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN
Destination: 08STATE32646
Header: VZCZCXYZ0002OO RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #0954 0931529ZNY CCCCC ZZHO 021529Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 8118INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE PRIORITYRUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE PRIORITY 0139
Tags: PREL,NATO,MK,GR,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 000954 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS DEPT FOR EUR/WE, EUR/SCE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/01/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS REF: STATE 32646 Classified By: DCM Richard LeBaron for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
1. (C/NF) FCO Political Director Mark Lyall Grant told DCM that high-level UK intervention with Greece, including an appeal from FM Miliband to Greek FM Bakoyannis at the March 29 EU Gymnich, had failed to shift Athens off its hard-line position. Lyall Grant has been in close contact with Acting U/S Fried on this issue. The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz, maximum pressure must be brought to bear on the Greeks.
2. (C/NF) Lyall Grant said that it was unclear whether Greece is using the name issue to block any Macedonian accession to either EU or NATO, or whether a modifier currently unacceptable to Skopje, such as "upper-Macedonia" or northern-Macedonia" would mollify the hard-liners in Athens. Either way, according to Lyall Grant, it will likely require head of government level intervention at Bucharest to move the issue. Lyall Grant said that Paris could also be problematic, given ongoing French-Greek military contract negotiations. He promised continued UK effort and coordination with the U.S. and other like-minded Allies. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX Tuttle.
Dear reader please take note of the following;
1. “…he could not give a stuff what they called their country…”, and
2. “…The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz…”
If this information is indeed true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, then;
a. The Greek side could not care less what the Macedonian people call their country, and,
b. The Macedonian side has accepted to change the name which obviously is not what the Greek side wants!
So, the million dollar question here is “What does the Greek side really want?” and what are the two sides “really” negotiating?
Our Name is Macedonia
So, on the surface it would appear that the Greeks in authority are pretty serious about the name and are hard at work “negotiating” with Macedonian authorities to find a “mutually acceptable” solution. At least that is my understanding according to an article published on January 25th, 2011 in the Macedonian online website which quotes Greece ’s Prime Minister saying “I am not an optimist over the prospects for swift settlement of the name dispute with FYR Macedonia. The other side refuses to accept a name with geographical qualifier for all uses. The Greek positions and initiatives in the issue are stable and constant. We will not stop in our efforts to find a mutually acceptable solution. We have a national strategy and clearly drawn red lines," said Papandreou while presenting the country's foreign-policy objectives.
If that were the case why then has a Greek Minister been quoted as saying something entirely different?
Here is what one of my readers sent me;
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/80506-0016.htm
Column 532 is part of an interesting Speech by Lord Robertson (former NATO General Secretary and UK Minister of Defense), somebody considered a political big hitter and the sort of person who would know exactly what happens in NATO summits. If he says Greece Vetoed Macedonia, I’d take it as certain that they did, despite what the official (public) reports said. As a Labour member he would have had direct access to the PM and Minister for Defense (two men actually in the room at the time of the veto).
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090326/debtext/90326-0017.htm#90326-0017.htm_spnew1
Column 529. Not Lord Robertson as I wrongly remembered it, but Robert Walter MP. The Greek Defense minister he mentions could have been Spilios Spiliotopoulos, Yiannos Papantoniou or possibly (but unlikely) Akis Tsochatzopoulos. I imagine you know a lot more about Greek politicians than I do, so you would know who the more likely culprit (and private supporter of the Republic of Macedonia ) is.
Either way, both documents are freely available on the Parliament website, and as such open to public scrutiny.
Yes, Greece Vetoed Macedonia FACT. Yes, senior Greek politicians don't actually care about the issue, and simply use it to score internal political points (votes) FACT.
Quoted here are the references given above;
6 May 2008 : Column 532
In the previous debate, and probably in this one as well, we will talk about the reality of what is going on. My noble friend Lady Ashton outlined a number of the areas where the common foreign policy is working and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned a few areas where there is great potential for the future.
One experience during my time in NATO has almost disappeared from the scene. It was an insurgency in the small country of Macedonia —still obliged by the United Nations to be called the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia . It was scandalously—and I say that with great deliberation—excluded from an invitation to NATO membership at the recent Bucharest summit because of an unreasonable and indefensible veto by Greece on that country, simply because it will not change its name. However, in 2001, it was beset by an insurgency and all of the agencies came together—the European Union, NATO, the OSCE, the World Bank, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the European Union’s representative in Bosnia and Herzegovina , and the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. Everyone got involved.
Javier Solana and I went to Macedonia 11 times between March and November of that year. It got huge coverage and was the biggest story of that time. In the Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, wrote an article saying that it was an unmitigated disaster that we were getting involved in yet another Balkan swamp. The strap-line to his front-page article said, with the characteristic understatement for which Simon Jenkins is so well known, that I would not be content until the Balkans were aflame from the Adriatic to Istanbul.
However, all those agencies came together, worked together, on the ground at the highest and lowest levels. A peace plan was designed and, of course, Macedonia is now on the brink of both European Union and NATO membership. If people would like to learn a little more about it, the Royal United Services Institute has just published a small book by Mark Laity, who used to be my representative in Macedonia at the time, chronicling both what happened there and the lessons from it. It is well worth reading for those who would like to know, not about the scary prospects of European defense, but about how it works in action. I think that is of more relevance, frankly, than a lot of the scaremongering we have heard as each stage of the European integration debate has gone along.
However, I say, and I know that my successor would also say, had he been here in the House of Lords as well, that what the treaty proposes—the Berlin-plus arrangements and European defense as part of the common and foreign security policy—will strengthen and not compete with NATO. It will not duplicate NATO but provide assets that will be useful to NATO as a whole. Overall it will add to our capability as Europeans to be able to defend ourselves from the threats of the future rather than the enemies of the past.
26 Mar 2009 : Column 529
Robert Key: Will my hon. Friend share his perspective on the problem that Macedonia ’s name holds for the Greeks, who hold the right to block any progress for that new democracy because of the disputed name?
Mr. Walter: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and share his frustration about the Greek veto over Macedonia ’s participation in NATO. If we can, we ought to knock some heads together. I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name. We have to move on, because such ridiculous problems—although the Turkey-Cyprus problem is not ridiculous to a Cypriot—are blocking the co-operation that is essential if we are to move forward. I understand where the political rationale for Turkey vis-a-vis the EU lies, but we all need to look at the bigger picture.
I believe Mr. Walter hit the nail on the head when he said “I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name.”
In other words the Greeks are “playing political games” with the Macedonians and not only “don’t care” about the “name” and what happens to Macedonia and the Macedonian people but at the same time hypocritically talk about “mutually acceptable solutions” and “good neighbourly relations”. What does this all mean?
According to my reader it means that the two large moderate parties in Greece almost always receive the same number of votes and are in balance and in order to “win elections” they need the support of the fringe elements; the nationalists and the extremists. So whichever party “panders” to the sentiments of these people usually wins the election. So, Macedonia has become a “whipping boy” for Greek politicians to score political points with Greek nationalists and extremists.
Here are some interesting links, courtesy of my reader - why wait for Athens wikileaks when UK leaks are just as informative.
London Wikileaks Cables
HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305019/HMG-LOOKING-FORWARD-TO-BUILDING-ON-GAINS-OF-NATO-BUCHAREST-SUMMIT.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON1017
Date: 4/9/2008 15:46
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN
Destination: 08LONDON4|08LONDON845
Header: VZCZCXYZ0028PP RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #1017 1001546ZNY CCCCC ZZHP 091546Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 8205INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVERUEHKV/AMEMBASSY KYIV 0075RUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE 0141RUEHSI/AMEMBASSY TBILISI 0281RHEHNSC/NSC WASHDCRUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHDCRUEKJCS/JCS WASHDC
Tags: PREL,PGOV,NATO,EU,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001017 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS STATE FOR EUR/WE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/09/2018 TAGS: PREL, PGOV, NATO, EU, UK SUBJECT: HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT REF: A. LONDON 0845 B. LONDON 4/8 DAILY REPORT Classified By: Political Counselor Rick Mills for reasons 1.4 (b) and ( d)
1. (C/NF) According to FCO Deputy Director for Security Policy Chris Holtby, HMG shares U.S. views that the results of the NATO Bucharest Summit were better than expected going in, and looked forward to working closely with us to move forward soon on the outcomes which fell short of expectations. At the top of the list for the UK is Macedonian accession. PM Brown was deeply disappointed that the Greeks would not move on a compromise name, and wants to re-energize UN, Brussels and bilateral processes. The UK agrees with the U.S. position that the invitation does not have to wait for another summit; it can be extended at any NAC as soon as the Greeks agree. HMG is also determined not to let the name issue interfere with Macedonian progress towards EU membership.
London Wikileaks Cables
HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305022/HMG-WILL-CONTINUE-TO-ENGAGE-WITH-ATHENS-AND-SKOPJE-ON-MACEDONIA-NAMENATO-ACCESSION-ISSUE.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON1112
Date: 4/18/2008 14:00
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL
Destination: 08STATE40462
Header: VZCZCXYZ0000OO RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #1112 1091400ZNY CCCCC ZZHO 181400Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 8305INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE PRIORITYRUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE PRIORITY 0145
Tags: PREL,NATO,EU,MK,GR,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001112 SIPDIS SIPDIS DEPT. FOR EUR/RPM, EUR/SCE, EUR/WE E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/11/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, EU, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE REF: STATE 40462 Classified By: Political Minister-Counselor Maura Connelly for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
1. (C) HMG has been engaging, and will continue to engage with, senior Greek leadership to encourage Athens to be more flexible in its position on the Macedonia name issue. FCO Balkans Group Deputy Director Adam Bye said that the British Ambaasador (HMA) to Greece had met with Foreign Minister Bakoyiani on April 14, stressing many of the points contained reftel. Bakoyiani's reaction showed little movement from that of the Greek position we have heard over the past few months - that it was Skopje refusing to be flexible, and that Greece has worked as hard as it could within the UN mediating process. According to Bye, Bakoyiani also added that progress was unlikely before the June 1 Macedonian elections. Bye said the FCO would summarize the points contained reftel for HMA in Athens, advise him of the other countries the USG has requested to assist, and ask him to approach the FM once again. HMA may also contact Ambassador Speckhard to discuss joint approaches to the Greek government.
2. (C) Bye underlined that HMG is as concerned as the USG about the Greece-Macedonia impasse, and its impact on the NATO Alliance and Balkan stability and in the longer term, EU unity. He shared a readout of an April 18 video conference which he attended and included representatives from UK Missions to Greece, Macedonia, NATO and the EU: the UK appreciates and will continue to support U.S. efforts to remove the Greek block on Macedonian accession to NATO; the June 1 Macedonian elections represent an additional challenge, and the UK will urge political parties on all sides not to politicize the name issue or appeal to nationalistic instincts to gain support; while the UK shares the U.S. desire that this issue be resolved within the next few weeks, it is more likely to require a "sustained push," at least until the Macedonian elections; and, the UK will lobby other EU members to exert influence on Athens. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX LEBARON
London Wikileaks Cables
NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:05PM GMT 04 Feb 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305009/NATO-MACEDONIA-INVITATION-UK-EFFORTS-FAIL-TO-MOVE-ATHENS.html
Ref ID: 08LONDON954
Date: 4/2/2008 15:29
Origin: Embassy London
Classification: CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN
Destination: 08STATE32646
Header: VZCZCXYZ0002OO RUEHWEBDE RUEHLO #0954 0931529ZNY CCCCC ZZHO 021529Z APR 08FM AMEMBASSY LONDONTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 8118INFO RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE PRIORITYRUEHSQ/AMEMBASSY SKOPJE PRIORITY 0139
Tags: PREL,NATO,MK,GR,UK
C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 000954 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS DEPT FOR EUR/WE, EUR/SCE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/01/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS REF: STATE 32646 Classified By: DCM Richard LeBaron for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
1. (C/NF) FCO Political Director Mark Lyall Grant told DCM that high-level UK intervention with Greece, including an appeal from FM Miliband to Greek FM Bakoyannis at the March 29 EU Gymnich, had failed to shift Athens off its hard-line position. Lyall Grant has been in close contact with Acting U/S Fried on this issue. The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz, maximum pressure must be brought to bear on the Greeks.
2. (C/NF) Lyall Grant said that it was unclear whether Greece is using the name issue to block any Macedonian accession to either EU or NATO, or whether a modifier currently unacceptable to Skopje, such as "upper-Macedonia" or northern-Macedonia" would mollify the hard-liners in Athens. Either way, according to Lyall Grant, it will likely require head of government level intervention at Bucharest to move the issue. Lyall Grant said that Paris could also be problematic, given ongoing French-Greek military contract negotiations. He promised continued UK effort and coordination with the U.S. and other like-minded Allies. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX Tuttle.
Dear reader please take note of the following;
1. “…he could not give a stuff what they called their country…”, and
2. “…The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz…”
If this information is indeed true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, then;
a. The Greek side could not care less what the Macedonian people call their country, and,
b. The Macedonian side has accepted to change the name which obviously is not what the Greek side wants!
So, the million dollar question here is “What does the Greek side really want?” and what are the two sides “really” negotiating?
Our Name is Macedonia
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